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Karen Wallace

Rosa,
My parents used to say I was 'contrary' when I was a child... and I was never sure whether that was a bad thing, or a good thing. But whether good or bad, contrariness certainly starts a conversation, doesn't it?

I am in two minds about The 4-Hour Work Week. Yes, I own the book. No, I didn't get past the first chapter or so before it was packed away like the rest of my house late last year. After reading Terry's review, and the subsequent conversation you talk about here, including Joanna, Steve and Dave's comments, I was motivated to get the book out and read it again. (But it will have to wait until the bookshelves are up and the boxes can be unpacked).

I am intrigued enough by the review and the conversation to give the book another 'go' and see what I can learn from it. Maybe it's the contrarianism - it makes me want to pick up the book and make up my own mind - despite the negative, despite the hype. Does that make ME contrary? My family certainly think so...

You will note I didn't leave a comment on the book review at JJL. There was a reason for that. I was lost for words. Thank you Rosa for helping me find them again.

By the way, I too keep going back to that quote from Dean - I read it every day...

Steve Sherlock

Thanks for this posting Rosa. As you know, Joyful Jubilant Learning is more than just a blog. The coming together for the conversations around books and other worthwhile topics creates a wonderful life of its own.

Thanks also for raising Dean's quote on children. I recall reading it when he wrote it but as it had been "buried" it was not an easy point to reference.

Technically this is one of the problems with blogs and blogging software. It is so focused on the now, the good stuff that did occur and can still bring value by re-reading, taking a new trail of comments, or conversation tends to get buried in the archives.

I went digging for a posting I did once upon a time to include in my upcoming book review. I knew I wrote it. I could recall the keywords but needed Google to dig it up for me and I was surprised with where I found it.

Some future blogging software will have something like the keyword bubbles in a cloud mapped such to bring those past thoughts to the present more readily. I am even struggling with how to depict what it would look like so I don't blame the software developers for not having anticipated our need yet.

Sandy Edwards

The references and commentary on this book are a clear message for me, tied in closely with recent work-related events. The comment in Terry's review about how not delegating leadership creates a situation where a manager is too busy to lead really hit home.

I'd be delighted with a 40 or 50 hour work week, and if this book provides the inspiration and a path to achieving it, I'm there!

Rosa Say

Karen, your first mention of your parents made me smile, for I can recall some of those conversations too —both as child and now as parent! And you are right; the contrariness is the trigger (or target?) and the sorting out of the conversation that ensues is where so much gets revealed. I like what you say about using Terry’s review and its conversation as the impetus for making up your own mind, and when you are ready, if that box proves too out-of-reach still, I concur with the comment Dwayne Melancon had left at JJL that the audio version is very good. I have yet to read the entire book myself —in that style of “full contact reading” we talked of at JJL— but I’ve made a once-through listening while on my daily walk; it made me pick up the pace!

Sandy, something else Dwayne said there, was “I often get into discussions about this book with some coworkers who've read it, as well.” And I’d agree that The 4-Hour Work Week can make for a good “let’s read this together” selection in the workplace —enroll everyone else in your goal. It’s pretty conducive to chapter-module work versus tackling the whole book: For instance, if productivity is the goal, I think his Step II section, “E is for Elimination” is a winner, starting with chapter 5 on “The End of Time Management.” He has a great way of applying the Pareto Principle (80/20 Rule), calling it the “freedom from futility.”

And Sandy, like you, I loved this gem from Terry, and am going to copy it here (quicker retrieval for me later Steve!)

“I took it as another form of freedom - leadership freedom.

In other words, if leaders take on too much responsibility, they cease to be leaders - they just don't have the time. If they can trust and delegate responsibility, they can be "free" to do what they should do best - lead and inspire. And talk about vision. And context. And job fulfillment and happiness.

And for the person you entrust with responsibility, they also receive great riches- confidence and self-worth.” —the wise Terry Starbucker

See what else I think about Terry here :) http://tinyurl.com/yojsrc - he was the inspiration for me writing, “Have a Better Conversation, and “Something more can result.”

Rosa Say

Steve, you have sweetened my anticipation for your review coming up on the 18th!

I share your frustrations with archiving and retrieval, and more than once have wished I had more techie programming knowledge to draw from, with tagging at Del.icio.us just partially doing the trick for me —I just don’t use it consistently enough. One thing I realized recently (in fact, I have another posting in drafts on this) is that I need my own consistent keyword language so that I can build more reliable indexes. I started to play with this one at my Say Leadership Coaching site as a start:
http://www.sayleadershipcoaching.com/slc/CoachingArticleIndex.html

However it is a lot of extra work (and like with Del.icio.us calls for much discipline if it is to be complete) and I am so with you in wanting innovative software development. Going back to what I just wrote for Sandy, I do think that elimination of the fluff or repetition in archives is huge: Categories and tag clouds don’t work that great for me because four years into this now my entries are in their second thousand. I have Google Search on all my sites now because it is still the best way for me to find something.

Joanna Young

Rosa, what a great conversation! I am laughing at how your headline came about, and must say I feel proud to think of myself as an open-minded contrarian. What a brilliant phrase.

To me it says thinking for myself.

Something I hope I always will do.

Yet you're right, what's so good about JJL is that it encourages us to think, share, challenge, inspire, learn from each other in a most supportive way.

I know many of us have written things there that we wouldn't have felt brave enough to post on our own sites. There's a knowledge of back up, support and encouragement which is first class.

And I too always tune in to the comments because there is always something over and above to pick up and learn there - often more so than in the originating post.

I was thinking earlier about a piece Chris Brogan had written about how he felt without his blog for 8 days. I was thinking that I'd my own blog, but also that JJL would be a huge loss if I didn't have that space to talk, to chat, to chew the fat, to throw ideas around over a virtual cup of coffee.

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth!

Joanna

Dean Boyer

Rosa,

You have thrown us into the deep end of a wave machine pool with this one! I have some swirling initial thoughts about open mindedness and contrariness. The more I think about it the more complicated it gets. So, in a spirit of simplicity I offer these gulping thoughts:

I believe as one thinks in his heart, so is he. Beliefs, founded on truth, become convictions when the mind and heart are living in oneness. I am comfortable living with a closed mind regarding my truth-based convictions. Where being contrary can be damaging is when I am close minded with my preferences. Using preferences to build walls or draw lines in the sand are hurtful.

Next, with an open heart, I be a welcoming person to anyone whether or not we are aligned in our convictions or preferences. To be contrary at this point is ultimately damaging to both of us. It is not my position to judge another but it is my duty to lay out the welcome mat to all who desire to come.

Dean

dave

Rosa - you have nailed me with precise accuracy.

The dynamics of JJL do I believe, encourage us to strive for clarity, thoughtfulness and intelligence. Though there is immense intelligence within the community, no one tries to be cute or flaunt it. This sets the stage to stick a foot in the water. It allows us to be us.

Rosa Say

Mahalo Joanna, your “tuppence worth” is always golden to me :) I’ve sat with the phrase open-minded contrarian for a few days now, and I have begun to like it more and more too! We have often spoken of how powerful the words we choose are, and when they create conversation like this it is so doubly intriguing!

Simplicity does help in so many things, doesn’t it Dean! Yet your mana‘o my friend, is anything but… you share some very wise words with us.

Dave, if I have “nailed you with precise accuracy,” we are two peas in a pod… and Karen and Joanna have pretty much said they are squeezed in with us! Wonderful company to have.

As you all know, we have several discussions about JJL at differing times, and perhaps the one thing we can say with certainty is that the site does live up to its name of joyful learning. And, as French novelist Marcel Proust had said, “The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new lands, but in seeing with new eyes.” We have room on our voyage for open-minded evangelists and contrarians alike!

Steve Sherlock

Rosa, et al

I just found this link of timely interest

http://www.fullcirc.com/wp/2008/03/16/harvesting-knowledge-from-text-conversations/

Maybe this will be one of my subjects for our April exploration of digital learning? We have raised wiki once in a while, maybe this time there will be enough of a context to explore further.

Rosa Say

Thank you Steve, that is a great article. I am adding an excerpt here so that I will keep it top of mind and follow-up too... adding "harvesting" to my own vocabulary as well.

OPPORTUNITY:
"There are often amazing threads on email lists and web based discussions. Often they get lost due to the tyranny of recency over relevancy. We remember what we last read. How many times have you heard people say “hey, we discussed that before… where IS that conversation?” Some tools make it easy to search within message, but then you have to reconstruct a thread. There may have had subject line changes, interruptions, etc. It is hard work. That’s why it is useful think about practices to pull out useful stuff so it can provide wider and easier benefit."

SUGGESTIONS IN BRIEF:
"We moved into harvesting what we called “Community Knowledge.” This is the basis of the technique I know use regularly."

1. Role model the harvesting behavior.
2. Ask others to try the behavior.
3. Time the request well.
4. Expect resistance.
5. Encourage those who adopt the practice.
6. Make the value visible.
7. Reduce barriers and support from the side.

This was fascinating: "Last year we had the need to review our technical platforms and lo and behold, the wiki was getting more page views that the community’s older, established content management based site."

Terry Starbucker

Hi Rosa - my apologies for not commenting sooner. I'm humbled by the kind words I've read in this post and in the comments. Thank you all! Your post was such a thought provoker for me with your concept of "open-minded contrarians", especially since I've been struggling a bit with my recently more-developed sense of self-awareness - I blogged about that last week.
(http://www.terrystarbucker.com/2008/03/13/an-unexpected-side-effect-of-heightened-self-awareness/)

Here's what I said that summed it up for me:

"So with self improvement comes a need for a rebalancing of sorts. A strong need to keep and cherish what I’ve gained over the past 9 months, but just as strong of a need to harness and use it properly. To keep an open mind. To keep listening. To keep learning and adapting. To absorb, process, and then respond - with understanding, compassion, empathy and wisdom."

That last sequence sounds a lot like the JJL community, doesn't it? :-)

Thanks again, and all the best!

Dwayne Melancon

Rosa, I smiled as I read this (and not just because you linked to my review). My Cajun grandmother used to tell us kids, "Don't you contrary me!" when we got a bit sassy with her. I thought of that when I read this - thank you.

Rosa Say

You share yet another great quote with us Terry; mahalo! In my teaching of the MWA approach to vision and mission, I am fond of speaking of "change" and "constants" together versus separately, much for the same feeling your quote conveys: Change initiatives are great in our forward-thinking, but it is good to go for that rebalancing you mention where our keepers (the good constants) are honored as well. I like another word you use - "absorb."

So Dwayne... are those Cajun roots where your clever and spicy wit comes from?

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